NO POLITICS ALLOWED..DID YOU WATCH NIGHTLINE ON FRIDAY?

[Mr NJ Sports]

They read the names and showed photos of all of those who have died so far in the Iraq war.
I watched it. Instead of hearing the news with "2 soldiers were killed"
I felt that I owed it to these brave men and women to see who they were, and that they are not just numbers put they were people with familes and loved ones that fought for us Americans. Thank you to each and every one of them and their families.

 

[barman]

I did not watch it. We've been keeping up to date with a couple of casualty websites, plus the local paper tracks Floridians who have died over the past 13 months.

Being brought face to face with needless death is a drag for sure.

For what are you thanking them?

 

[Mr NJ Sports]

Service to the country. Defending our freedom around the world. Keeping the wars on the enemies soil and not ours.

 

[EverFresh]

How was attacking Iraq "defending our freedom"?

 

[barman]

Their 'service' is of extremely dubious nature.

My freedoms have not been protected by their participation in Iraq.

They 'have' succeeded at keeping their operations outside USA, though that's no more noteworthy than every military force we've had in the past 140 years.

Just wondered, thanks.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by barman:
Their 'service' is of extremely dubious nature.

My freedoms have not been protected by their participation in Iraq.

They 'have' succeeded at keeping their operations outside USA, though that's no more noteworthy than every military force we've had in the past 140 years.

Just wondered, thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Spoken like a truly clueless dipshit nestled in the relative safety of "Clearwater Fla." Sleep tight...Don't let the RPG's bite!

 

[Mr NJ Sports]

No offense Barman but you are quite the scumbag.

 

[barman]

Well yeah, it is pretty safe down here, if you forget that I'm about 12 miles west of MacDill AFB, aka Command Central for the whole shebang.

Oh, I'd probably have a modest level of tension if the people we were fighting in Iraq had any interest in attacking any part of the USA, much less Florida, MacDill notwithstanding.

But since no one in Iraq has had any weapon capable of being delivered further than a few miles, they'd first have to roll right up into Tampa Bay following about a ten day boat ride from the Middle East.

OH WAIT, what if it's some clandestine group like those 16 Saudis (you know Saudi Arabia...the guys that own GW Bush and Co?) and they do some kind of covert terroristic act here in Tampa Bay?????

Well, having 130,000 troops on the other side of the world doesn't do much to help me with that either.

So, yeah, I'm not too tense or scared.

I'm sorry if you are and hope you find a way to feel peace again.

 

[barman]

MNJS, no offense taken.

I've learned that people who are pi$$ed off and scared say all kinds of things.

You and I are alike in that we're both angry about the lost lives of Americans during the past 13 months. And we're obviously quite different in how we perceive the mission of the troops in Iraq.

If I, like you, felt they were protecting my freedoms etal, as you cited above, I would be joining you in Thanking them.

But I don't, so I won't.

 

[Mr NJ Sports]

Those planes didn't seem like weapons either until they were slamming into buildings.
I do agree with you on Saudi Arabia , they are just as bad as the rest of them over there.

And how do you know what they are thinking of attacking?

 

[jimbutorac]

Bar, I usually track with what you're saying pretty well. But you're being more than a bit insenstitive on this.

I don't agree with us being in Iraq either. But those 700 plus Americans that died in Iraq died fighting along side of their brothers in arms and put their lives on the line in doing their duty. It wasn't up to them to decide the mission, but it did fall on them to carry it out and for doing so and paying the ultimate sacrifice, we owe them and their families the deepest respect and gratitude, period.

I don't have stats but it seems a large percentage, maybe even a majority of the casualties come from minority, lower-income backgrounds, some who have been awarded citizenship posthumously. To belittle their deaths seems cruel, no matter how you feel about whether or not we belong in Iraq. If you're going to vent, do so against the leaders, not the foot soldiers.

Mud

 

[barman]

MBONE, you need to go back to the top of this thread and read from the beginning.

I mourn the loss of the troops as well.

But when NJS said "Thank you" to them, I simply asked why. And his reasons for thanking them were valid to him.

I just don't see their mission as being valid so there's nothing to thank them for...from ME. Others who view their mission differently than I do may well have valid reason to thank them.

And yes any complaints I have are with the men who are sending them there, not with the troops themselves.

Needless death is always a drag.

 

[barman]

NJS: And how do you know what they are thinking of attacking?

BAR: I presume you're talking about the people we are battling in Iraq.

The answer is of course I don't know what they are thinking of attacking. But I am aware, like most anyone who has followed this for the past 30 months, that those people in Iraq who are fighting us do not have any kind of weapon capable of being delivered more than a few miles...thus Clearwater FL is indeed a very safe place.

As for the idea that another covert group might get together and hijack some planes, or smuggle a bomb across the border, or build a bomb here, or poison the water system here, or machine gun a shopping mall here, NOT ONE ACTION we are taking in Iraq right now does anything to lessen those possibilities from occurring. So again, nothing our troops are doing in Iraq makes me feel any 'safer' here in Florida than I did prior to 9/11/01.

If however, YOU feel that their actions in Iraq are making YOU feel safer, than your thanks to them is not only warranted, it would be the height of ingratitude for you to not tell them that.

I just have a different perception of what exactly they are doing for me and mine with their service in Iraq at this time.

That's all.

 

[jimbutorac]

Bar, I will give it one last shot...

Bar: ...I just don't see their mission as valid so there's nothing to thank them for...

Mud: The people who died did not choose the mission. They chose to be willing to sacrifice their lives and take a bullet if the leaders of our country decided it was necessary. You and I agree that it was not necessary but the elected leaders of this country decided it was.

Nonethless, the fact that these Americans chose to put their lives on the line and paid the ultimate sacrifice, IMO deserves our respect and gratitude.

Also, in some unsolicited advice from the Mud: If you want to be serious about changing things visa vis current popular opinion and the Admin, stop with the downplay of the sacrifice of American casulties in Iraq and focus instead on what we can do to make the situation better. If that means changing Administrations so be it.

 

[barman]

MB, I think you and I are really close on this one, but somehow between us the typed messages make it appear otherwise.

My only lack of 'thanks' is for the reasons which NJS cited above...they are insufficient for ME...obviously not for NJS or it seems, for you.

Thus you should indeed thank the troops. They
are worthy of it in your eyes and I'm not here to tell you how you feel...to do would be preposterous on my part.

I do agree with you that the key is changing administrations. That's why I don't come in and suggest, "Hey the troops are sheep, they deserve what they get".

Sure, I think a U.S. soldier at this time would be a hero if he spoke out against the Iraq campaign, but I'm not dim enough to think that very many of our troops are going to do that, even if they believe it inside their head.

No, it's up to their fellow Americans to speak for them where they cannot, due to military protocols and regulations. That's where I come in.

And if part of my message requires me to say what I honestly believe - all troop casualties in Iraq are tragic and NEEDLESS - in order to help reduce those same casualties, that's what I've got to do.

I don't such messages here at the RX thinking, "Hey, now NJS, KMAN etal will jump to my side and begin marching against the war"...nope, it's simply a forum for posing ideas one versus another.

The heavier lifting, as you know, is done far away from these forums and out on the street and in the media, where I work on a daily basis.

Here, I'm just trying to learn more about my fellows who obviously share with me an interest for wagering sports and all that entails.

If someone here sees a political issue way different than I do, it's cool, because neither of us loses money and it shouldn't take away from our real lives where we do the real work of political change.

NOW you get it, I'm sure...

 

[Mr NJ Sports]

Barman, earlier in this thread I resorted to namecalling. It was uncalled for and I apologize to you for it.

 

[barman]

NJS, thank you...I bet if someone pulled up my archive of posts here, they might have caught me doing the same thing once or twice.

As I suggested above, I'm betting (pun intended) that those of us who frequent RX are more alike than different, given our shared interest in sports etal...Thus, when we do perceive something from different ends of a spectrum, it can be tempting to mash before just tipping our hats and respecting different perceptions.

Off to pack the peace pipe...keep jammin' NJS